Grateful Dead 05/26/1977
SBD > 7" RTR half-track recording @ 7.5 i.p.s. 1/2 track > Marin County Mixdown ADAT > SSSB; Seeded to etree by Jay Serafin
Other Sources
SHNID 3224 Soundboard > 7 inch Master Reels @7.5ips 1/2...
SHNID 18746 AUD>MC>DAT>CDR via Raoul Duke encoded by Matt...
SHNID 31291 SBD>>MR>>DAT>>SHN>>DAW(Bertha)>>CDA/SHN; Bertha...
SHNID 32092 AUD>MC>DAT>CDR>EAC>WAV>DC6>WAV Unknown...
SHNID 32302 SBD>MSR>DAT>SS>CD>EAC>WAV>DC6>SHN Source:...
SHNID 97016 flac 16 ; Sick Bits Vol. 30a - SBD/AUD mix of...
05/26/77 Sets I / II
Baltimore Civic Center Baltimore, MD
LINEAGE (SET I/II):
SBD > 7" RTR half-track recording @ 7.5 i.p.s. 1/2 track > Marin County Mixdown ADAT > SSSB
All editing & processing performed at 24-bit/96 kHz (100% digital realm) by:
Jay Serafin, chief audio/video engineer at Serafin Station Studio B, using
the (code name) "Harpoon" editing software (beta Ver. 0.948.7 Build 103)
Disc 1
SET I
gd77-05-26d1t01 08:05.823 The Music Never Stopped
gd77-05-26d1t02 15:11.016 Sugaree
gd77-05-26d1t03 04:21.144 Mama Tried
gd77-05-26d1t04 03:59.782 Sunrise
gd77-05-26d1t05 05:35.775 Deal
gd77-05-26d1t06 03:56.857 Passenger
gd77-05-26d1t07 05:44.046 Brown-Eyed Women
gd77-05-26d1t08 09:16.845 Looks Like Rain
gd77-05-26d1t09 06:15.707 Jack A Roe
gd77-05-26d1t10 05:21.450 Minglewood Blues
Total time: 1:07:48.445
Disc 2
SET I cont'd
gd77-05-26d2t01 07:42.299 Bertha
SET II
gd77-05-26d2t02 08:28.691 Samson & Delilah
gd77-05-26d2t03 08:05.775 High Time
gd77-05-26d2t04 06:51.044 Big River
gd77-05-26d2t05 10:27.213 Terrapin Station ->
gd77-05-26d2t06 08:36.229 -> Estimated Prophet
gd77-05-26d2t07 12:26.694 -> Eyes Of The World ->
Total time: 0:54:55.646
Disc 3
SET II CONT'D
gd77-05-26d3t01 16:46.510 -> Not Fade Away ->
gd77-05-26d3t02 08:21.208 -> Goin' Down The Road Feelin' Bad ->
gd77-05-26d3t03 08:08.556 -> Around & Around
gd77-05-26d3t04 08:06.796 ENCORE: Uncle John's Band
Total time: 0:40:51.070
Comments
Soundboard > 7 inch Master... (3)
AUD>MC>DAT>CDR via Raoul... (0)
SBD>>MR>>DAT>>SHN>>DAW(Bert... (0)
AUD>MC>DAT>CDR>EAC>WAV>DC6>... (0)
SBD>MSR>DAT>SS>CD>EAC>WAV>D... (0)
flac 16 ; Sick Bits Vol.... (0)
It would seem to me that if this source sounds better, it should be shntooled and re-circulated in "correct" form. If the other source sounds better, it should be spread again instead of this one.
Joe: There is a David Gans sourced version (I think he played it on one of the KPFA marathons, then seeded a tree)of this show in which he patched the reel cuts with segments of other May 77 shows. I am not aware of any alternate sbd source for this show so this may well be a remaster of Gans' remaster...
:O)
Willy
The "Mixdown ADAT" was taking the pre-mixed (2-track) show, and giving me FOUT REDUNDANT COPIES in case of a problem on the ADAT tape.
"100 digital realm" means that from the entry point into any of the three editing computers, to the both Harpoon-propriatary digital input sound card, to the digital mixer, to the Harpoon editing software, there are NO analog components involved in editing and processing this show.
If you say you've e-mailed me, but I don't answer, it's because I didn't get the e-mail! I answer ANY AND ALL non-spam e-mail questions posed to me. So, don't lie about things.
To save you the trouble of going and reading the GDLive post, here it is:
"I am going to explain this for the LAST TIME! (And I've done so in MANY private e-mails, despite people saying I do not reply to them).
Since these shows are sent to me for (usually) touch-up work, editing, noise reduction of all types (not just analog tape hiss), and other processes, my goal is to make the show sound as natural as possible, almost to the point of "being there". Most of the time, this is able to be accomplished. Sometimes, it is not.
Having said that, I work on each track/song indivudually. This allows me much more freedon and saves much more time than working on it as an "entire set" or "entire show". When you to and see a band play, they start EACH SONG on the first note. This is NOT POSSIBLE if I were to cut the songs, as you folks say, "on the boundary". Depending where the boundary actually is, the song can start too soon, or too late. If it begins too late, than you get the first part (note, word, whatever) chopped off. This is not how my releases are meant to be.
I work long and hard on these shows. I am more of an "archivist" in the work I do. Because of the way people burn their CD's, the software used, the burners used, and I could go on, some people get the "click" between tracks, some people do not. THIS IS NOT MY CONCERN! This may sound harsh and cruel, but people say "gimme, gimme, gimme", and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. This is NOT how it works here!
Each .shn file is a complete song/track onto itself. You can take ANY individual .shn file from ANY of the shows I've worked on, decompress it, and you will have the song/track play 0.04 to 0.06 seconds from the very first note of the song (this is what is also used in mastering houses world-wide... it is done because many CD players will not instantly produce output. They need a little "starting room", and this very small, and unable-to-be-heard "pre-start" (which is actually the very end of the last track/song) will give any CD player that chance to get up to speed, and to begin capturing the data from the audio CD people burn. So, if you only wanted to hear Me & My Uncle from one show I've released, if you download that .shn file, you're going to get it... not starting too soon or too late, but right on the money!
If people don't like having to deal with the SBE problem, here's my solution:
Take the show, uncompress the files, stitch the tracks together, take whatever your favorite program is, and let your choice of software break the show into the sections it wants to do. There it is... problem solved!
I release the shows, so that people can go and obtain a song just by uncompressing ONE FILE, not TWO files! If the original audio files were "cut on boundary", you'd need the preceeding file (if the song you wanted started "late", due to the SBE program), or you'd need the file after the one you wanted (if the SBE cut the song "too early" at it's end). So now, you have MORE WORK TO DO!
I am not forcing anyone to listen to shows made with this SBE program, that SBE program, etc. A commercial studio doesn't do this, and I don't either. The mastering houses have ways of taking care of this by means of million dollar hardware/software combinations when they make the pressing copy for future CD discs. You can take and re-do the shows I release in ANY FASHION YOU WANT!
Want a single MP3 song? You can take the .shn file, and make a pure MP3 of a song just by downloading the one file! Again, you don't need TWO files!
Finally, I find it very unusual that so many people have problem with my shows. My AUDIO MASTERS which I use for making dubs (audio files, not .shns) are made from the MASTER .SHN CD! I simply uncompress each file, use CDRWIN to burn the CD at 1x speed (which is the MOST RELIABLE WAY to get the proper burn depth, and without introducing jitter and worse, due to mild to severe vibrations when a disc spins at anything over 4x). The pits are burned to the correct depth, and can be read by high-speed CD-R drives, and ripped without problems. If one burns at anything over 4x, the pits may not be deep enough, and when the disc is ripped, diginoise can be introduced into the ripped track.
If people are too lazy to do a little work, that's not my problem. I'm giving people shows which can be used to make compilations, etc., with the least amount of work. And that is because of each file contain ONE SONG PER FILE. No "undercutting", no "start of the next song at the end of the track" being in there... it is just like taking your home/portable CD player, and choosing Track 04 (for example)... you certainly expect to only hear Track 04, not the first part cut off, or part of Track 05!
Use whatever program suits your needs to "fix the problem". But, the way I release my shows, there IS NO PROBLEM! You can take (just like I do) ANY show I've released, decompress the .shn files for (example) Disc 1 of 3, and then using good software (the 1x version of CDRWIN is FREE, by the way!), burn the disc. But people are looking for shortcuts, and ways to save their own precious time. Sorry, I don't work that way. The releases I put out there are made in a specific way, for a specific reason and purpose. If they're going to be vined, passed to others, whatever, that is NOT MY CONCERN! My concern is that the individual person who is personally downloading the show for their OWN enjoyment; or to have a show where (s)he can download and listen to a single song, or even multiple songs, using mkwACT, and their favorite player software (or burning their own personal CD-R).
That's it. Cut and dried. It's funny how many people bitch and moan about this SBE problem, yet so many others write and tell me how good the show is! Hey, I could just as easily put the .wav files up here on GDLive, and let you folks run wild with it! But no, people wanted them compressed to save time. So, you have to live with the limitations of technology, as do I!
Sorry if this post sounds bitchy, high-handed, egotistical, call it what you will. You wanted an answer, you got the answer! Maybe it's not the answer you wanted. It can take my anywhere from one week to one month to release a high-quality audio show, as I have to balance family responsibilities, my physical limitations of being unable to sit for more than 30-45 minutes, household chores, social responsibilities, and more. You folks can't take the hour or two to "make the show work like you want it to behave"? Sorry, but to me, people who don't want to do this appear greedy and/or lazy. Gee, what if don't use YOUR favorite program to cut the tracks? I guess I'm still "wrong", even if it's not right!
Or, we can simply end the whole problem right here and now: I just won't release any more of the 309 shows left to be worked on. I'll throw the media into the trash
I'm sitting here watching footage on every friggin' channel, watching my brother firefighters and paramedics die needlessly. Can't excape it today. But, popi got this going, and it deserves a reply. For those of you who say "Jay doesn't e-mail me back", I say you are a bold-faced liar! I answer EVERY piece of non-spam e-mail sent to me!!! People ask me questions, I give them answers. Always have done, always will do."
Well whatever weight your preceding comments had, they just lost it with this line. Instead of all the stuff you wrote, why not just say "If you complain about SHNS not being cut on sector boundaries, the terrorists have already won."? Would have saved everyone alot of readin'.
better idea/way to distribute shows?
You people got BALLS to give this man headaches and this bullshit.
"When you want something done right, do it yourself!!"
If you dont like the cuts, DO NOT DOWNLOAD IT!
AND SHUT THE HELL UP.
Simple really.
Give the man a break, for real.
If Jay would take 2 seconds to run his files through shntool once he finished them they would have no errors (resulting in no clicks in between tracks), and there would be no problem.
There is no way in hell that fixing a sector boundary error will have any discernible impact on where the song starts. It's just too small of a shift.
For those of you who argue that we should just be happy he does this to begin with i say you are wrong. he is being stubborn about doing 2 seconds worth of work that would prevent us from having multiple md5s of a show in circulation.
Again, I don't have any beef with you. I think it's great that you and your "Marin County Source" contribute to the community. At the same time, members of a community share some basic rules of etiquette. In our community, one of those "rules" is that seeds should be cut on sector boundaries. Simple enough, right?
If you have any questions about ways to enable your code named "Harpoon" editing software to cut tracks on sector boundaries, feel free to post here and someone will help you out.
I'm really lost as to why this is a big issue for you. You put all this time and effort into fixing these, to skip a 10 minute step at the end. And you know that this makes your shows non-Red Book compliant, yet you burn at 1x and won't use 80 min CDRs because they might be noncompliant?
This doesn't wash. If you don't wanna fix them send 'em to me before seeding and I'LL do it right.
Each track of a standard audio CD is composed of "frames" or "sectors" that are each 1/75 second long (also expressed as 2352 bytes or 588 samples long). If a track is properly cut on a multiple of 1/75 second, it is "sector aligned", or cut "along sector boundaries." When it is not properly cut, the last sector is like a ragged end, which CD burning software just fills in with silence. Listeners will hear a click or pop between tracks because of the music -> sub-second silence -> music transition. These sector boundary errors (SBEs) will sound louder or softer depending on the CD player. They may be very loud and annoying for some listeners, even if they are not noticeable on your own system.
To avoid SBEs, force your audio editing program to cut only on a multiple of 1/75 of a second (or only on frames, or only on a multiple of 2325 bytes or of 588 samples, however your program expresses it). Do any editing or "mastering" before doing your track splits. Never add fades or edits to .wav files after you track them. Doing so can push them out of alignment.
As for jb's comments about quick fixup of Jay's generous future seeds, it seems gdlive is generally the first stop for Jay's material, so perhaps folks could take up practical troubleshooting over on the gdlive messageboard, as Jay suggests. They have a good community of folks over there who care about what's on gdlive, if I recall correctly.
In the big picture, luckily SBE's are one of the lesser and most easily fixed "flaws" in seeding these days, thanks to shntool.
Jay, I'd email this but I don't have your address handy, even after all this talk. Thanks for the tunes, sir!
How can I give an ounce of respect to someone who makes a statement like this?
also, lets not split up china>riders and scarlet>fires... (flame suit on)
In comparison, this one does have a bit more punch to it.
The interesting part about this seed is the editing done to cover the reel flips in Estimated Prophet and Around And Around.
The edit in Around is fairly basic simply omits any of the missing music that is included in the Clugston AUD patch. It is not completely smooth, but it isn't glaring either. This edit is not mentioned in the text file.
The edit in Estimated however, took a little more work. In the text file, it is mentioned that there was cross-fading done to smooth over the reel flip. What is not mentioned is that a section of the second chorus was used to cover the reel flip during the first chorus.
Thanks for your comments regarding the reel splices in Estimated & Around. I knew the Gans version had splices from other 5/77 shows and these splices on the SSSB source seem to be the same. So, either the exact same edit was performed as the Gans seed *or* this is the Gans seed run through Jays processing equipment. No mention in the info file about any of this except it's the master from the "Marin County Source."
as far as working on each song separately, that is silly.
he says he wants to duplicate the concert experience, and that any track downloaded should just be that song, but just as people don't go to a concert and only stay for one song, people don't just download one song from a shn set. they download the whole concert! just as one song does not make a concert, one track does not make a shn set, and if all the pieces of the set don't fit together seamlessly, then no one is going to enjoy listening to the concert. so when you say it's not your problem, it is, because no one is enjoying your shn sets and will likely not bother with them unless you do us all a favor and spend 10 minutes to fix your tracks on sector boundaries, whether you work on them one at a time or not.
you would think the chief recording engineer of a studio could grasp such a simple concept.
btw, these comments are now longer than the average serafin txt file.
> The bottom line is that my way of making the
> recordings of the restored shows is correct. It's
> the .shn program itself that is making the errors
> come to the surface.
Obviously, this is a 100% incorrect statement. He goes on to further validate his lack of understanding.
> one should never use more processes than is
> necessary. .SHN is a process, and that's what's
> causing all the fuss. If files were simply saved
> as .wav or .cda files, there would be no problems.
But another thing strikes me: Why is the second set split during a segue between Eyes>NFA??? Terrapin thru to e: is only 73:20 (redbook)... Wouldn't it be better to have this jam uncut on its own 3rd disc, leaving the 2nd disc as just a 30 min. disc???
Jay, you can justify your SBE all day - but there is no excuse for cutting a segue onto 2 discs...
T
I just don?t understand why you won?t, after all the time spent, ensure the tracks are split on proper sector boundaries as per Etree seeding standards. I just don?t get the stubbornness, nor do I understand your reasoning behind your stance.
The amount of doctoring one can do to a file digitally is limited only by ones patience and equipment. I have been playing around a bit with Sound Forge 6.0 and I am learning a little about what you are all talking about here as far as re-mastering the two tracks go. I found that it was to my benefit sonically to edit at the highest rates possible to preserve the sound quality at say 16 bits, 44,100hz. The editing work done at that level is nearly sonically invisible at the lower resolutions, at least to the average listener.
That said, however, I must take exception to the post by Hudson Fowler ??Additionally, most folks out there have access to a treble and bass knob on their tuner/amp that's more than adequate for adjusting the sound to fit their listening room and personal taste. Some of the cleanest, most elegantly engineered, high-fidelity audio components out there offer nothing more than those two adjustments??. The best of preamps that I have auditioned have had NO knobs whatsoever and needed none.
The processing one can do is amazing as far as presentation goes. That muddy flat sound that so many shows we have in circulation feature is in no way the music was intended to be ?preserved? by the artists that made the music. So what Jay is doing is admirable to a point. But when one threatens to destroy the media he professes to want to preserve and archive for the times to come I start to wonder a bit. And to then miss the last step in sending it out to all of us peons really makes me wonder.
And Jay, I have waited ever so patiently for a response to my email that I sent over a month ago, so maybe there is something going on with the way you have the mail filters set. And the letter I sent was in response to one you sent to me privately; in response to a question I posed on GDLive. Don?t worry about it all now; I have already gone beyond all the questions I posed in that missive.
I do have a question that I have not been able to answer definitely yet and I pose to all digital audio pros: when up scaling the wav file from 16 bit /44.1khz, is it proper to change bit depth first and then resample? What about going back down? I seem to get the best results by bit depth and then re-sampling going up and down. Any comments or theory as to which is preferable is highly appreciated. Thanks to any input here.
I say we appoint someone to use the shntool to fix all the SBE's seeds from seeders that refuse to use the shntool. Yes it is a very easy step! It takes about 2 minutes to do. So why is it a hassle for the seeder(s) to do this? I am not put Jay down or anyone here for that matter. I just am making a suggestiuon that if the seed has SBE from a pitucular seeder that refuses to take the extra steps. We should appoint someone to fix the SBE's and re-seed before the pool gets totally pissed on. Just my 2 cents. No offense to anyone here.
Sincerly,
T. Wiley
GDLive is an open archive and we will post your shows as well. If you feel strongly about this, upload or send your seed to us and evangelize its presence to the community.
~Mike
That is not the case for me! Look at my list try to find a SSSB show on it! I don't get them even if they are great due to the SBE'S!!! I have no time to fix them after I get them due to the many groups and projects I am involed with. YOU might want them I DON'T!
T. Wiley
1) I think this discussion should be taken off of this seed and added to the wiki.etree.org site. While the back-and-forth regarding sector boundaries does apply to this seed, it is much more generally applicable (there are many SSSB seeds and many non-SSSB seeds with SBEs) and would be better served on a page dedicated to seeding guidelines/sector boundaries. If that can occur, maybe we can replace this long discussion with a single comment linking to the wiki page. I would go ahead and add the comments myself (the beauty of wiki), but I would like to get a consensus first and maybe have Diana or someone more "qualified" take care of the changes. Thoughts?
2) The sector boundary issue itself is becoming silly. Jay is claiming that people will criticize him for using the wrong software to cut his wave files on sector boundaries? That's ludicrous. It's not a question of how well a seed's tracks are cut... it's a cut-and-dry, yes-or-no issue: is this seed cut on sector boundaries? It either is or it isn't... no questions asked. The Redbook standards define this as a requirement in order for something to be considered a CD. Peter Braverman, whose opinion I deeply respect, posted just this explanation on the GD Live message board. Like he said, maybe the people defining the seeding standards or the standards for what is and is not a "CD" know something he doesn't. And even though Jay is obviously an expert sound technician capable of leveraging his fancy toys to do post-production work on live recordings, he is simply *wrong* in this case. Accepting his clearly incorrect opinion as to why he must not "give in" to the demands of the community is a poor precedent to follow. There's really nothing we can do about it, but those who post that "it's all about the music" and "jay gives us the music, stop bothering him" are not helping to maintain the integrity of our archives. And it's not an issue of "etree vs. everyone else"... it's a matter of high quality versus poor quality, doing the job right versus doing the job wrong. The explanations cannot be given any more clearly: you move the track markers a maximum of 1/150th of a second and you satisfy everyone. *No one* will complain about a seed that *is* cut on sector boundaries. If most others can adhere to this community norm, why must we defend Jay for not doing so? It really does only take a few minutes and it really is something important... of all people, I would think Jay could understand this. And besides, adding a note about cutting tracks on sector boundaries could really beef up those text files, eh Jay? :)
Meanwhile, Willy and I feel that the present discussion does serve a purpose being here, so it will remain.
However, I believe that all the more general issues and opinions pertaining to this and similar seeds have been covered well enough on this page. At this point, I would like to request that additional comments here stick only to specific, additional observations about this shn set that have not already been covered (good example, Painoman's notes above on splice patching). Thanks!
When DVD media becomes more affordable, the shows I receive (and recorded at the higher bit/sampling rates) will not have to be down-converted, since the DVD will easily handle 32-bit and 196 kHz rates.
As far as the SBE issue, no one should have reason to complain after 3/04, as all shows which will be posted at GDLive have been "fixed" using ShnTool.
As far as the one person's comment that "every show has noise reduction, etc. performed on them" (that's not the exact quote, but it's close enough), not every show has NR or other processing performed on them. And EQ is RARELY USED HERE WHEN WORKING ON SHOWS! Maybe 1 show out of every 30 has several 20-40 Hz-wide parametric EQ curves performed on them, and then it is no more than +/- 2.0 dB !!! That is usually when a show is left with the Dolby A or B encoding left turned on. I have the chart which shows what the encoding curve is for Dolby A, B, C, H, and S (the latter 2 are used in Studio work).
If I DO have to use EQ, I make a note of it in my text file. For the show lineage/comments, that part at the end which says "... performed in the digital realm" does NOT state that those processes WERE performed, but only IF they were performed, they were done without using outboard equipment.
thanks jay for comforming to common sense.
Also, in case you're interested, here's the md5 for the SBE-fixed fileset (shntool defaults - backward shift, padding at end):
eb05d1a6306d5f6cbdd0f83e704cfde3 *gd77-05-26d1t01-fixed.shn
5e75da8b1bf88c5a54efc34d4b2ac4fd *gd77-05-26d1t02-fixed.shn
f43e761314b4c5b8ca1067cd4be42d28 *gd77-05-26d1t03-fixed.shn
414ce66958e5c502c639ef658f24d790 *gd77-05-26d1t04-fixed.shn
5640be3a16736eee44703f01f7027ce2 *gd77-05-26d1t05-fixed.shn
b6a1c5ee17eec682ea04300635b1545a *gd77-05-26d1t06-fixed.shn
2e85abbdb79cdf2f826a44d1a3ad2e96 *gd77-05-26d1t07-fixed.shn
e5339a5b78ae7ec9e38553271938fb83 *gd77-05-26d1t08-fixed.shn
5659176d63ff10449da31f07e756538a *gd77-05-26d1t09-fixed.shn
01367c20ebe51c1379542fc7412f4c85 *gd77-05-26d1t10-fixed.shn
f79807888984ea2ff35df14bc14d4ec4 *gd77-05-26d2t01-fixed.shn
c21d5b45368f42ffd79b292444f61f33 *gd77-05-26d2t02-fixed.shn
f38648b05877ee42e734dc3deff71249 *gd77-05-26d2t03-fixed.shn
0f8a4d851f1b5dadf319baacb131608c *gd77-05-26d2t04-fixed.shn
eceb3516de70da98664ff86aafbfa6f1 *gd77-05-26d2t05-fixed.shn
0ca508831138f34caf60d5bab1a3df64 *gd77-05-26d2t06-fixed.shn
3c323dc52e130cbdddefcc5b3739ebb8 *gd77-05-26d2t07-fixed.shn
f059bc657661b84e5c61c77e7f862808 *gd77-05-26d3t01-fixed.shn
eddd67ad1d6360bd38193d589519beaa *gd77-05-26d3t02-fixed.shn
04eb4766092a12da9fd5c4e6e75ed825 *gd77-05-26d3t03-fixed.shn
e01710edefbd332291d90af977ea89fb *gd77-05-26d3t04-fixed.shn
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